Talk:New Netherland

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The Entertainment Industry

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Barry B. Bortson — Today at 2:57 PM

I got some more ideas for modern day NNL film industry and the region:

First of all here's a really simple proposal to change the NNL city geography, basically inventing the city of Niagara and moving the city of Uythoorn to the coast (where the OTL city of Buffalo is)

In addition so my idea is that anything within (to the left of) the black line is NNL's "Hollywood" (which might be known as 'Waterwout' or maybe another name for the whole region and 'the falls' being the area right near the Niagara river and is equivalent to saying "hollywood hills")(edited)

Barry B. Bortson — Today at 3:14 PM

--- Within the region each major urban area would likely have their own character too, 1. Niagara being really rich and where most of the A liters, execs and elites live, also alot of filming takes place in the area 2. Ursem being like rich suburbs but more low key than Niagara 3. Nieuw Leyden-"the big city" where most of the film industry actually is located, very diverse with people coming from all over the country (but also continent and world) to 'follow their dreams' 4. Uythoorn- a "working man's city" that is lumped in with the rest, alot of aspiring actors live here to avoid high cost of living in Nieuw Leyden, Ursem and Niagara

Abolition of Slavery

Bort: But generally alot of the opposition of slavery came from the working and middle classes (as well as the new businessowner elites would wanted to take the plantation owning elite down a peg) basically the policy of patroonship: receive land but u need to fill it with settlers and develop it, was mostly a Dutch Republic thing right, now that NNL becomes independent in 1795 and basically the patroons having a lot of $$$ do you think they'd switch over to slave labor instead to develop more land? i personally dont want that for NNL since itd be lore-breaking but this needs to be ironed out, why they dont resort to slavery and banning them completely pretty early on in their independence nnl would be pretty nativist post independence up until at least 1903 revolution El BortoToday at 12:19 AM I think (large scale) slavery would be unlikely to take hold in the north for a variety of reasons tbh including that northern agriculture was less labor intensive than the notoriously brutal cotton and sugar plantations in the south, plus slaves were expensive with slave holders being expected to clothe and feed them Supreme Duchess TimToday at 12:20 AM I think they could switch but keep in mind you have Kommando's so maybe the patroons would not do it due the fear of a straight up uprising wannabeeToday at 12:22 AM the kommando is the local militia that is composed of farmers and local amerikaners right? Supreme Duchess TimToday at 12:22 AM YEah yeah wannabeeToday at 12:22 AM they surely wouldnt object to the abolition of slavery Supreme Duchess TimToday at 12:22 AM no but i mean it could deter the patroons from even bringing over slaves wannabeeToday at 12:22 AM ah ok sorry, i misunderstood your point yeah makes sense mmmh ok looking good looking good ok lets try to set arbitrary dates for abolition: NNL: right after the establishment of the patroon constitution (1796) ?


wannabeeToday at 2:23 AM So, the arcs of NNL Government history:

- Post-Charter Colonial Government 1656-1795: This is from the time our guy Van der Donck secures the municipal charter. Basically pre-independence. Still colony of the Dutch Republic.

- Patroon Constitution Government - 1796-1901: This is when the patroons basically had independence. Kind of a "for patroons by patroons" kind of constitution. This period would be characterized by a weak central government in its early years (with the local patroons having more power), but the central government start to consolidate power in the late 1800s and actually limit the rights of patroons

- Post-Revolution Government 1903 onwards, post-revolution

1800s Arc

wannabee 02/08/2021

First of all, we need to set the overarching theme of the 1800s NNL. Remember that, the independence of NNL in 1796 was basically funded and led by the patroons, hence Patroon Constitution right? That means, throughout the early to mid 1800s, a lot of factionalism is involved. We have various conflicts between the rich patroons that end up in border skirmishes. Almost like a feudal warlord era type of system. And considering that by this time, this is when the industrial revolution is supposed to hit the americas. I was thinking that they'd be super unindustrialized and still rely on manual work (manual processing of cotton, etc), and they'd be a backwater by the 1830s. And same with the Netherlands, I think that the Tussenland colonies would be heavily unindustrialized. And this honestly makes sense with our 1800s idea of the Dutch Empire decaying, and the rise of the British. I think the industrial revolution would still come out of Britain, and they utilize these new technologies to one-up the Dutch. And the Dutch's inability to keep up would be evident in their loss in the 1850-Dutch Spanish War and the Canton War. I dug up the old ideas I had for 1800s NNL and tried to fit them with the current narrative we have now So it goes: Independence Arc

  • - British demands NNL colony's surrender. The colonial government of NNL declares surrender.
  • - Everyone was pissed at the colonial government (patroons, private militias, commonfolk, literally everyone)
  • - One of the large patroons (Claes van Beeke) orders a march to New Amsterdam to overthrow the colonial government. His son, Marÿn van Beeke, led this offensive.
  • - Colonial government was successfully couped out. Trecherous colonial government gets arrested.
  • - A provisional government was temporarily established by Claes van Beeke in New Amsterdam.
  • - Short war between britain and the provisional government ensues, but NNL "wins" because of Britain pulling out early in the war to focus on the french revolutionary wars.
  • - This victory would heavily be blown out of proportion and be proclaimed as "Victory Day" or something like that.
  • Interim
  • - The patroons had convened in the capital. They agree on a constitution. Elective Stadtholderate. Leader of NNL would be a stadhouder (modeled after the Dutch republic). Term ends when stadthouder dies and a vote would be held for the next Stadtholder.
  • - They now convene to select the First stadtholder. It needs to be someone well liked by all classes. And the best choice is famous war general Marÿn van Beeke, due to his popularity with the masses, and connections to the patroons. A living symbol of NNL's independence, bravery, and awesomeness in general.
  • Part II: Hereditary Stadtholderate
  • - In the 1830s, Maryn I dies (due to dubious reasons). New leader is elected, a patroon named Hendrik, hailing from the southern patroons in Zwaannendael.
  • - He was good in general at the start, but basically as he was nearing old age, numerous corruption scandals hit his reign, and basically he tries to corrupt the regular NNL army into siding with him in his exploits. In the 1835s, he declares that NNL stadhoudership is now hereditary and just does a "fuck you" to the other patroons. The army and his cronies agree with him.
  • - Some patroons resist using their private militias, but the militias were weakened in way back in 1786 when the colonial government enacted the Military Assimilation Act (the one where the colonial government bought the private militias out to form a regular army) , which severely crippled the power of the private militias.
  • - The regular dutch military defeats the private militias (and some kommando units, which sucked at offensive attacks)
  • - NNL monarchy is now hereditary.
  • The leader is still called Stadhouder but it is hereditary now.
  • Hendrik I has successfully retained his power due to the appeasing the following parties:
  • - Other patroons: He negotiated with the patroons, allowing them to retain their holdings if they would just cooperate with the new regime. Uncooperative patroons will have their property confiscated and distributed to the "cooperative" patroons.
  • - Military: Promised the leaders wealth and more power. Basically corrupting the military.
  • - Kommando: Kommando system was abolished by Hendrik and weapons were confiscated from the commonfolk.
  • - Commonfolk: Hendrik I dont care, fuck the commonfolk

Now you might think that this new stadtholder is bad and all. He is basically more authoritarian, but I think him limiting the power of the patroons could actually bring in good for the NNL During his rule, a lot of new infrastructure would be built, brining in of new technologies (although late). And maybe we could connect this somehow with the Jonkman's rise. Like they could be the government's official contractor say what if this stadtholder was part of the Jonkman family.

Supreme Duchess Tim 02/08/2021

ehh I think that would put the Jonkmans on a bad footing maybe the stadhouder married a Jonkman daugther or something ? But yeah that makes sense NNL basically becomes more centralized and does a massive catch up - Kommando: Kommando system was abolished by Hendrik and weapons were confiscated from the commonfolk. maybe this part is sort of "commonfolk hide weapons" and give the older weapons

wannabee 02/08/2021

oh yeah that could work. And basically in the modern day I think we'd have a lot of pointless internet arguments about the Jonkman company's origins lol, with two sides being "bruh they obtained their wealth because they were close with the corrupt government" and the other side being "Yes that is true but that is only in the 1800s, most of the Jonkman's wealth were obtained in the 1900s and they were already clean by that point" gives it more depth IMO lol

anyway, the last part of my idea is that the authoritarian-ish king dies shortly after the war (lets say 1856) The coronation of his son, Lodewijk, awakened the rebellious sentiments of NNL again. But this time, the anti-government sentiment was stronger within the commonfolk. Lodewijk, who was a self-proclaimed liberal, tries to appease the population not through force, but little by little with concessions. However, this opens a pandora's box for his reign. Demands are coming from all sides now and basically snowballs into protests by the commonfolk, with one of the demands being the abolishment of the patroonships and the reestablishment of the kommando system.

Not surprisngly, Lodewijk agrees to the terms and this would bring reform to NNL, EXCEPT the abolishment of the patroon system. The compromise he found would just be to ban private militias altogether. This would be called the "Bloodless Revolution" or something like that. Now Now I'm imagining a mini-coup by the patroons, but ultimately this wouldnt be successful because the private militias have already either A.) Sided with the new liberal government B) Have been bought off by the government during the reign of the previous authoritarian king A result: Patronship culture would still be there, but no private militias. NNL military will be strengthened, and this is how NNL basically was able to help the Dutch Tussenland in 1861 defeat the rebels there (and given ABC islands as a prize). And then eventually come 1903 revolution, they just become full republican and abolish patroonships altogether

and 1910s we could have some suffragette protest arc that would result in extending the vote to women. We could have like a strong awesome woman character leading the protest thing and 1920s-1950s we could see a lot of immigration. Plus the ANAN arc,

El Borte "Máximo " Banderas 02/08/2021

This 1800-1900 is awesome! I also think the idea of the dutch being a little slow to industrialize really fits the timeline and now I'm super excited to see a patroons ship map lol Maybe in NNL industrialization starts up and down the Hudson but eventually spreads towards the west and the lakes and when the Pitts area industrializes that's when SHTF when it comes to NNL rapidly growing economy

Supreme Duchess Tim 02/08/2021

I think the Jonkmans might have seen where the wind was blowing and could have said "Well laters" and used their influence to make their prior involvement a bit downplayed, like they own the naval shipyards and likely have enough influence and people working for them that they could use some Kommando's (that might be reinstated after the british blockade for defense ?) to counter the revoltion (or so are the fears of the revolutionary gov)

wannabee 02/08/2021

well, i think the revolutionary gov would be in favor of the jonkmans? Considering that they were not patroons?

Supreme Duchess Tim 02/08/2021

Yeah makes sense, but i do think that at least initially some would think "well where they not Stadholder supporters ?

wannabee 02/08/2021