Talk:Standard Chinese: Difference between revisions

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= Pinyin to Standard romanization =
= Cantonese-influenced ONP =
{| class="wikitable"
{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center;"
! colspan="2" |Pinyin
|+Initials chart
! colspan="2" rowspan="2" |
! colspan="2" |ITTL
!Notes
! rowspan="2" |Labial
! rowspan="2" |Alveolar
! rowspan="11" |
!Other rules
! rowspan="2" |Retroflex
! rowspan="2" |Palatals
! colspan="2" |Velar
! rowspan="2" |Glottal
|-
|-
|q
!<small>plain</small>
|/tɕʰ/
!<small>labial</small>
|-
|ć
|/tɕʰ/
! colspan="2" |Nasal
| rowspan="3" |
|m [m] 摸
* Alveolo-palatal consonants; palatalization is marked with an acute accent ◌́.
|n [n] 挪
* ITTL, Standard Chinese only palatalizes ''some'' consonants in front of the vowels /y/ and /i/ compared to OTL.
|
* Palatalization would not usually be represented in maps, posters, etc, usually only for situations when pronunciation is important. Though in reality, palatalization would vary from speaker to speaker.
|
| rowspan="10" |
|ng [ng] 我
* Generally look at the Wiktionary pages of characters: for example, you may except [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E4%BA%AC#Chinese 京] (OTL ''jing'') to be ''źing'' ITTL. However, looking at the Cantonese and Middle Chinese makes it clear that it is ''ging''.
|
|
|-
! rowspan="2" |Stop
!<small>plain</small>
|b [p] 波
|d [t] 多
|
|
|g [k] 哥
|gw [kʷ] 姑
|[ʔ] 亞
|-
!<small>aspirated</small>
|p [pʰ] 婆
|t [tʰ] 拖
|
|
|k [kʰ] 卡
|kw [kʷʰ] 箍
|
|-
! rowspan="2" |Affricative
!<small>plain</small>
|
|z [ts] 知
|
|[tɕ]<sup>1</sup>
|
|
|
|-
!<small>aspirated</small>
|
|c [tsʰ] 雌
|
|[tɕʰ]<sup>1</sup>
|
|
|
|-
! rowspan="2" |Fricative
!<small>plain</small>
|f [f] 科
|s [s] 思
| colspan="2" |x [ʂ]~[ʃ] 書<sup>2</sup>
|
|
| rowspan="2" |h [h] 何
|-
!<small>voiced</small>
|
|
|r [ʐ] 肉<sup>3</sup>
|
|
|
|-
! colspan="2" |Approximant
|
|l [l] 羅<sup>4</sup>
|
|j [j] 也
|
|w [w] 華
|
|}

==== Notes ====

* <sup>1</sup>[ts] and [tsʰ] may be palatalized before certain finals as [tɕ] and [tɕʰ], though these are not represented in writing.
* <sup>2</sup>Characters such as 石, pronounced /ʂʐ/ in Northern Mandarin, would be conventionally pronounced as /ʃɛːk/ (''xek'').
* <sup>2</sup>The traditional Mandarin [ɕ], as in 心 (/ɕin/), is vocalized as [ʃ] by the vast majority of speakers. While ''x'' was initially supposed to purely represent the [ʂ] phoneme, many speakers in southern China pronounce it as [ʃ]. Dialectal speakers of Cantonese may completely substitute [ʃ] with the phoneme [s].
* <sup>3</sup>/r/ has been retained as a retroflex initial from Nanging Mandarin.
* <sup>4</sup>Several casual speakers in Cantonese-majority areas merge the initial /n/ with /l/. Some speakers in southwestern China merge the initial /l/ into /n/ as well. However, this practice is officially discouraged, and formal speakers retain a clear distinction between /n/ and /l/.


* In common but not state-approved romanization:
{| class="wikitable"
** <u>Anglophone world</u>: final -i may turn into -y, as in [[Zu Sugwey|Zu Sugwe'''y''']].
|+Finals chart
** <u>Batavophone world</u>: ''ei'' might be spelled ''ij'' and ''ai'' might be spelled ''ÿ''.
! rowspan="2" |OTL
! rowspan="2" |IPA
!
! colspan="3" |Oral
! colspan="3" |Nasal
! colspan="3" |Checked<sup>1</sup>
|-
|-
|j
!
|/tɕ/
!-<sup>2</sup>
|ź
!-i
|/tɕ/
!-u
!-m
!-n
!-ng
!-p
!-t
!-k, -ck
|-
|-
|aa
|[a]
!aa<sup>3</sup>
|aa 呀
|aai 挨
|aau 拗
|aam 監
|aan 晏
|aang 罌
|aap 鴨
|aat 押
|aak 客
|-
|a
|[ɐ]
!a
|
|ai 矮
|au 歐
|am 痷
|an 恩
|ang 鶯
|ap 急
|at 不
|ak 德
|-
|e
|[ɛ~e]
!e<sup>4</sup>
|e 誒
|ei 非
|eu 掉
|em 舐
|
|eng 鏡
|ep 夾
|
|ek 尺
|-
|i
|[i]
!i
|i 衣
|
|iu 妖
|im 淹
|in 煙
|ing 英
|ip 葉
|it 熱
|ik 益
|-
|o
|[ɔ~o]
!o
|o 柯
|oi 哀
|ou 奧
|
|on 安
|ong 康
|
|ot 渴
|ok 惡
|-
|u
|[u~ʊ]
!u<sup>5</sup>
|u 烏
|ui 煨
|
|
|un 碗
|ung 甕
|
|ut 活
|uk 屋
|-
|oe
|[œ]
!eu
|eu 靴
|
|
|
|
|eung 香
|
|
|euk 約
|-
|eo
|[ɵ]
!eo
|
|eoi 去
|
|
|eon 春
|
|
|eot 律
|
|-
|yu
|[y]
!j<sup>6</sup>
|ju 於
|
|
|
|jun 冤
|
|
|jut 月
|
|-
! colspan="3" |-
|
|
|
|m 唔
|
|ng 五
|
|
|
|}

==== Notes ====
* <sup>1</sup>Checked tones may be pronounced as glottal stops [ʔ] and may be represented with apostrophes, particularly in northern China and the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangnan Gongnam region]. However, checked tones are written regardless if they are pronounced or not in most formal settings.
* <sup>2</sup>In finals without final stop codas, they may be followed by an ''h'' in writing. For example, ''o'' (柯) may be written as ''oh''.
* <sup>3</sup>When it is not necessary to use tone markers, ''aa'' is usually shortened to ''a'', or a macron is added to indicate vowel length (''ā''). This is typical when transcribing place names or common personal names (such as Gongnan or Nanging).
* <sup>4</sup>/e/ may be pronounced as [ə] or [ɤ] by some northern Chinese speakers.
* <sup>5</sup>/u/ is also transcribed as ''oo'' and ''oe'' in accordance with Dutch orthography, particularly in Fukgin province and the [[Batavosphere]].
* <sup>6</sup>The digraph ''ju'' is also transcribed as ''joe''. For example, the character 粵 (lit. Cantonese) is almost always transcribed as ''Joet''.

= Old attempts =
{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"
! colspan="10" |Consonant chart
|-
!
!
!Labial
!Dental
!Sibilant
!Retroflex
!Palatal
!Velar
!Labialised
!Glottal
|-
| rowspan="3" |'''Stop or affricate'''
|'''voiceless'''
|p
|t
|ts
|tʂ
|
|k
|
|ʔ
|-
|'''aspirate'''
|pʰ
|tʰ
|tsʰ
|tʂʰ
|
|kʰ
|
|
|-
|'''voiced'''
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-
| colspan="2" |'''Nasal'''
|m
|n
|
|
|
|ŋ
|
|
|-
| rowspan="2" |'''Fricative'''
|'''voiceless'''
|f
|
|s
|ʂ
|
|x
|x
|/ɕ/
|
|
|ś
|/ɕ/
|-
|-
|ch
|'''voiced'''
|/ʈʂʰ/
|
|
|c
|/tsʰ/
|
| rowspan="3" |
|
* Retroflex consonants, which exist in OTL Mandarin, do not exist in TTL Standard Chinese. These are usually pronounced as their pure alveolar versions /tsʰ, ts, s/.
|
|
|
|
|-
|-
|zh
| colspan="2" |'''Approximant'''
|/ʈʂ/
|
|l
|
|
|j
|
|w
|
|}
{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"
! colspan="4" |Consonants
!
|-
!IPA
!Pinyin
!Romanization
!Notes
!Approximation
|-
|p
|b
!b
|
|''s'''p'''y''
|-
|pʰ
|p
!p
|
|'''''p'''ie''
|-
|m
|m
!m
|
|
|-
|f
|f
!f
|
|
|-
|t
|d
!d
|
|''s'''t'''and''
|-
|tʰ
|t
!t
|
|'''''t'''an''
|-
|n
|n
!n
|
|
|-
|l
|l
!l
|
|
|-
|ts
|z
|z
|/ts/
! rowspan="2" |ch/z
|Replaces obsolete sound t͡ɕ
|''ca'''ts'''''
|-
|tsʰ
|c
|Replaces obsolete sound t͡ɕʰ
|
|-
|-
|sh
|/ʂ/
|s
|s
|s
|/s/
!s
|
|
|-
|-
| -a'''n'''
|tʂ
|/an/
|zh
| -a'''m''' (sometimes)
! rowspan="2" |zh
|/am/
|
|
|-
|ʈ͡ʂʰ
|ch
|
|
|-
|ʂ
|sh
!sh
|
|
|
* Sometimes in TTL Mandarin, ''-an'' reverts to the pre-modern Chinese and Cantonese ''-am''. Check Wiktionary to see if this is applicable.
* For example in [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%94%98#Chinese 甘] (OTL ''Gan''), the ''Gan'' is ''Gam'' in Cantonese and in the Middle Chinese reconstruction. Thus, it is ''Gam'' ITTL.

[[File:Standard Chinese Explanation Image 1.png|center|frameless]]
|-
|-
|er
|/ɤɻ/
|j
|j
|/ji/
|y
! rowspan="2" |y/j
|
|
* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhua Erhua] does not exist in the TTL Standard - ''er'' is usually replaced by ''ji'' in the formal standardization, though speakers with an erhua background might pronounce and write it with ''er'' anyways. Hokkien speakers may use ''ni''.
|'''''y'''ou''
* In words starting with ''r'' like 人 (OTL ''ren''), the ''r'' would be usually replaced with a ''j'', giving ''j''en.
|-
|-
| -VOWEL'''u'''
|ɥ
-'''u'''VOWEL-
|yu-
|
|
|VOWEL'''w'''
|
-'''w'''VOWEL
|-
|k
|g
!g
|
|
|
|
* Generally, ''u'' turns into ''w'' in finals, except for the exception right below.
* ''Ao'' also turns into ''aw''.
|-
|-
|kʰ
|yu
|k
!k
|
|
|y-
|'''''c'''an''
u-, -u-
|-
ü
|ŋ
|ng
!ng
|
|
|
|
* In Pinyin, the /y/ sound is represented by the digraph ''yu-'' & ''-ü-'' OTL, it is represented by ''y-'' or ''u-'' at the start of words, ''ü'' when it stands alone, and -''u''- in finals.
|-
|x
|h
!h
|
|
|-
|w
|w
!w
|
|'''''w'''ine''
|}
{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"
|+Tones
!Tone Numbers
!Name
!Tone markers
!Pinyin
|-
|1
|High flat
| colspan="2" |ā
|-
|2
|Rising
| colspan="2" |á
|-
|3
|Falling-rising
| colspan="2" |ǎ
|-
|4
|Falling
| colspan="2" |à
|-
|5
|Neutral
| colspan="2" |a
|}
|}


= Resources =
=Resources=
* https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chinese_(Mandarin)/Pronunciation_of_Finals
*https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chinese_(Mandarin)/Pronunciation_of_Finals
* http://www.pinyin.info/rules/initials_finals.html
*http://www.pinyin.info/rules/initials_finals.html
* https://chinese.yabla.com/chinese-pinyin-chart.php
*https://chinese.yabla.com/chinese-pinyin-chart.php
* [https://www.reddit.com/r/Cantonese/comments/9w2t4a/people_%E9%BB%90%E7%B6%AB_is_never_chi_sin/ Ch Ts merger in Cantonese] (Reddit)
*[https://www.reddit.com/r/Cantonese/comments/9w2t4a/people_%E9%BB%90%E7%B6%AB_is_never_chi_sin/ Ch Ts merger in Cantonese] (Reddit)
* [https://www.reddit.com/r/ChineseLanguage/comments/dg8ki2/questions_about_consonant_aspiration/ Mandarin consonant aspiration] (Reddit)
*[https://www.reddit.com/r/ChineseLanguage/comments/dg8ki2/questions_about_consonant_aspiration/ Mandarin consonant aspiration] (Reddit)
*[https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/6c1675ad-6214-4300-a16e-3635d3b7d330/content Linguistic History of Southern China]
* [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/231791003_Chinese_as_a_lingua_franca_in_Greater_China Chinese as a Lingua Franca in Greater China]
*[https://www.chinese-forums.com/forums/topic/48137-old-national-pronunciation-%E8%80%81%E5%9C%8B%E9%9F%B3/ Old National Pronunciation information]
*[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335503637_How_to_Create_a_Language_for_the_Whole_People_On_the_Codification_of_Putonghua_Pronunciation The Codification of Putonghua]
*[https://www.grin.com/document/450380 Standardization reasons for failure]
*[https://www.persee.fr/docAsPDF/clao_0153-3320_1983_num_12_1_1126.pdf Cantonese vowel shift]
*[https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/605899.pdf?refreqid=excelsior%3A8052c7a1e9fde0088fe2a90c6905ef12&ab_segments=&origin=&acceptTC=1 Phonology of Middle Mandarin (Early Qing Mandarin)]
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Latest revision as of 00:29, 5 May 2023

Pinyin to Standard romanization

Pinyin ITTL Notes Other rules
q /tɕʰ/ ć /tɕʰ/
  • Alveolo-palatal consonants; palatalization is marked with an acute accent ◌́.
  • ITTL, Standard Chinese only palatalizes some consonants in front of the vowels /y/ and /i/ compared to OTL.
  • Palatalization would not usually be represented in maps, posters, etc, usually only for situations when pronunciation is important. Though in reality, palatalization would vary from speaker to speaker.
  • Generally look at the Wiktionary pages of characters: for example, you may except 京 (OTL jing) to be źing ITTL. However, looking at the Cantonese and Middle Chinese makes it clear that it is ging.
  • In common but not state-approved romanization:
    • Anglophone world: final -i may turn into -y, as in Zu Sugwey.
    • Batavophone world: ei might be spelled ij and ai might be spelled ÿ.
j /tɕ/ ź /tɕ/
x /ɕ/ ś /ɕ/
ch /ʈʂʰ/ c /tsʰ/
  • Retroflex consonants, which exist in OTL Mandarin, do not exist in TTL Standard Chinese. These are usually pronounced as their pure alveolar versions /tsʰ, ts, s/.
zh /ʈʂ/ z /ts/
sh /ʂ/ s /s/
-an /an/ -am (sometimes) /am/
  • Sometimes in TTL Mandarin, -an reverts to the pre-modern Chinese and Cantonese -am. Check Wiktionary to see if this is applicable.
  • For example in 甘 (OTL Gan), the Gan is Gam in Cantonese and in the Middle Chinese reconstruction. Thus, it is Gam ITTL.
er /ɤɻ/ j /ji/
  • Erhua does not exist in the TTL Standard - er is usually replaced by ji in the formal standardization, though speakers with an erhua background might pronounce and write it with er anyways. Hokkien speakers may use ni.
  • In words starting with r like 人 (OTL ren), the r would be usually replaced with a j, giving jen.
-VOWELu

-uVOWEL-

VOWELw

-wVOWEL

  • Generally, u turns into w in finals, except for the exception right below.
  • Ao also turns into aw.
yu y-

u-, -u- ü

  • In Pinyin, the /y/ sound is represented by the digraph yu- & -ü- OTL, it is represented by y- or u- at the start of words, ü when it stands alone, and -u- in finals.

Resources

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